dying class

[jacobus]

is this class goin to die before it starts. im thinking of building a single, but like all knows its not so cheap, and is any body going to race it next year

[Kris VanOrden]

Im interested in whatever one elses thought are on this.

Here is my opinion.

Where there is an engine it will be raced hands down, this is just starting out slow because it is so new and different all the parts have to be handmade and or fabricated

When roland sands released his bike at 15000$ I think it hurt the class as a cheap way to start racing, probably scared a lot of people off.

Im hoping with this forum we start to see even more people share there knowledge on building the bikes or ask questions of what they are stuck on, I know Ive learned a lot and have been offered some really good help and incite from people like Geoff from GP Tech and Doug at RSD/Performance Machine. On top of what I have already learned I have posted for everyone to look at. When the aftermarket companys see the level of people we have visit the forum and sign up they will start to take notice and make parts more readily available.

This forum right now is one of the only ways to make company's see what you are thinking and your concerns and what you want, other then that you have to search all over the internet to find anything. Thats why I started 450forum.

[RIB333]

I have not built one for a few reasons. First it was billed as easy and cheap. It is neither. With folks like GP Tech making what amounts to full kits it does start to become cheaper and easier but hardly the shade tree mechanic type project it was presented as.
There are also significant suspension and geometry issues involved. On a good day with a supersports bike suspension set up is a steep learning curve, let alone the complexities these bike present with swingarm angle, suspension length and more.
The next problem is the real or percieved motor issues as far as reliability, longevity, and costs.
And last there are other alternatives for cheap racing, good alternatives.
I do like the idea and the bikes but until they start turning wheels in anger and there is real feed back on suspension, handling, parts availability, crash worthiness I am steering clear and waiting.

[racer034life]

Here is my 2 cents, The class will do very will, for starter's no one said racing was ever cheap, 15k is the price of a new icc shafter kart(which i just sold) Also like karting thw new singles classes all motors do have a life span. So i dont care what anyone says when a motor lets go it lets go stock or not. Icc shifters races with 125 motors 2 or 4 strokes built to the max. Sorry but this class is cheaper then most forums of racings hands down.
With compaines out there looking into this class and makeing products for this class it will soon be a big hit, For what i priced to day. Around $ 3500 not including the motorcycles gets you everything to get the bike up and running on the track, Plus you can find yzf's for cheap and you can build you a race bike for around 6k and thats with the price of the used bike. This is still cheaper then a Shifter kart. People keep say this class is so much. Go to E-kartingnews.com and see how much a new Arrow Chassis with no motor, wheels, tires, seat plus all the parts just to get to the track. Please all of you I say Stop Biotching and build a bike and take it to the track and have fun with it.

[RIB333]

I understand your point about racing not being cheap.
Motorcycles are not karts.
The Suzuki SV650 and Kawasaki Ninja650R are both cheap available machines with a great deal of development work and parts available. Seems much easier to race one of those.
My point is the dirt bike motor simply will not last as long between major overhauls than either of the 2 motors from the bikes mentioned above. Even built motors.
For some folks building and developing a new race platform is the type of challange they can take on. But to bill this as cheap road racing for anyone with a used dirt bike in the garage is unrealistic.

[racer034life]

True but not true, how can shifters run 125s that are built to the max and get very good run time out of them, we can all do the same as long as the class looks into what mods cant and can be had. True this isnt karting but the motors are much of the same thing.
But also sv motors let go just as will as any bike motor will, its about the rider and how far you want to push that motor in your bike. Yes you are true this isnt going to be cheap 1 because 400 motors from all the major bike companies dont sale cheap, 2 dirt bikes have to be rebuilt alot more then any major bikes.
So I have a question if this class is going to open or spec cause if its spec, where you cant touch the motor and mods to the suspension are outlined then this will be great but if not, Kiss this class good bye the major companies will put there new young riders in this class. We all have alot of work ahead if this class is going to work

[RIB333]

Aren't the 125's in the karts 2 strokes? Much easier to re-build, and cheaper. 4 stroke dirt bike motors are expensive to re-build and the longevity is much less than traditional street bike based 4 strokes. That is my point. Which I see you concede my point. Street based supersport bikes can get years out of the motors with basic maintenance. These dirt bike 4T motors, run on road race tracks wide open, will not last a season. Also the suspension set up issues and lack of data on such prevent this class from being "easy". As things develop it all might change. Yeah, buy a cheap used dirt bike sounds good, but then you have to factor in an engine re-build in addition to building the bike from scratch.
And yes it is a spec class I am pretty sure.

[racer034life]

O yes i do see you point most of the kart motors are 2 strokes, but the tag class or (touch and Go) are not. But they are sealed motors which i think this class needs to go to. Its an idea but alot of the spec class in karting have a few shops that look over motors and they seal them, which i think this class needs to go to.

[RIB333]

I have no idea about karting. The sealed engine might be a way to go as far as it being a spec class. I hope it takes off. If it does, as you pointed out, and the OEMs get into it with bikes and motors designed more for the singles class racing it could be great. Even an affordable OEM race shop (YEC, HRC, Yoshimura) built engine kit might be possible. Different cams, pistons, oiling for the engine, whatever needs to be done to increase longevity.
We'll see.

[Kris VanOrden]

Im actually going to start getting into doing a little dirt riding to keep my ear to the ground on what the dirt racers do to get any kind of better longevity out of there bikes, not like its twisting my arm or anything.

[racer034life]

Look on ekarting news i was reading what the four stroke guy do to keep there motors running longer. So i will see what there doing and post it up on the site.

[SLLaffoon]

Im actually going to start getting into doing a little dirt riding to keep my ear to the ground on what the dirt racers do to get any kind of better longevity out of there bikes, not like its twisting my arm or anything.

I ended up having several conversations with Mark Klein at Hyperformance cycles here in the Atlanta area before I committed to building mine, and long before he ever agreed to sponsor me. He was pretty highly recommended in the realm of dirtbike mechanics. Anyway, we've learned a good bit from building mine, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him as a resource if you have any other questions. He is the one who built my motor, tuned the carbs, re-valved/shortened/lengthened my suspension, and generally provided bike specific knowledge.

http://hyperformancecycles.net/
Mark Klein
498 Arnold Mill Rd
Woodstock, GA 30188
Phone: 770-517-6210
Fax: 770-517-6694

As far as costs go, I hope the class can get started, but it may take a while for the concept to be proven and for costs to come down. While shops like RSD and GPTech don't seem to have a problem, it can be a pretty big undertaking for someone will less resources. I have about $8,000 invested so far, but I have the ability to use a machine shop and sponsorship from Mark. Without that, it probably would have cost closer to $10-12k to build what I have.

[Kris VanOrden]

I ended up having several conversations with Mark Klein at Hyperformance cycles here in the Atlanta area before I committed to building mine, and long before he ever agreed to sponsor me. He was pretty highly recommended in the realm of dirtbike mechanics. Anyway, we've learned a good bit from building mine, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him as a resource if you have any other questions. He is the one who built my motor, tuned the carbs, re-valved/shortened/lengthened my suspension, and generally provided bike specific knowledge.

http://hyperformancecycles.net/
Mark Klein
498 Arnold Mill Rd
Woodstock, GA 30188
Phone: 770-517-6210
Fax: 770-517-6694

As far as costs go, I hope the class can get started, but it may take a while for the concept to be proven and for costs to come down. While shops like RSD and GPTech don't seem to have a problem, it can be a pretty big undertaking for someone will less resources. I have about $8,000 invested so far, but I have the ability to use a machine shop and sponsorship from Mark. Without that, it probably would have cost closer to $10-12k to build what I have.

Lets get some info on what route you went and how much Mark would normally charge for the work he has done to you bike! Post some pictures up of your 450, and make sure you list your sponsors on your signature.